Discussion in 'Beta Discussion' started by Vesuvius_SWIE, Aug 15, 2017.

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  1. AmishJoe

    AmishJoe Member

    Vesuvius, forgot to mention one, I think it may be the old I am not finished allocation bug. Screen shot, 20170829205529_1.jpg
  2. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Were the requirements for officer upgrade increased or decreased? (Number of battles)

    Seems to be 40 battles to get a Sol officer to rank 5.

    Also, the pencil icon would benefit from being a brighter color.

    Engineer - Scotty
    Medic - Bones
    Helmsman - Sulu
    Weapons - Worf
    Science - Spock

    lulz.. which one of these does not belong :p
  3. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    @Vesuvius_SWIE Yes, while it is pointless to have the listed chance to hit ever be greater than 100%, accuracy rating should be able to exceed 100% accuracy rating at 1/2max range though, improving the chance to hit or possibly reaching 100% at ranges greater than 1/2max

    You are losing the whole 'lucky' feel of it if you can't pull off a 7 range hit or something crazy unexpected for a particular ship and weapon.
  4. Kahless

    Kahless Member

    Finally the new tutorial for Genari! BTW I think the counterfire buttons aren't supposed to be active on the tutorial?
  5. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    I don't know about the captain, but that ship is not a Class XIV :p

    In galaxy map, the fleet/captain panel on the left has some issues. Bugged Info Panel.jpg Bugged Left Panel.jpg

    -I've reported this bug, it should be fixed soon. About the MaAlaketh, I think they need to remove that headshot as well.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2017
  6. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Please disable chat interface pop-up when moving the mouse in that area of the screen. I think it would be MUCH better if it only shows up when you press enter or other key to toggle it on/open. Otherwise, it should remain a collapsed tab (clicking on the tab would be fine) that flashes when there are new messages or something of the sort.
  7. Vesuvius_SWIE

    Vesuvius_SWIE Administrator Staff Member

    Yeah, its annoying. What about a chat tab to the side? I think that would be best, and it could flash when there's activity on it. A hotkey may not be known by newbies playing.
  8. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    It works well enough when you click the arrow to minimize the chat window. The window stays out of the way until you hit a load screen and then it expands itself again. I don't know if it flashes while minimized to notify of new messages.

    I rather dislike having a limited amount of time and trying to do something in that area of my screen only to be interrupted by having to clear the chat window or reposition my view so I can access the tile I want.

    Tutorials and load screen tips are for hotkeys :)
  9. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    [Edit: Seems my formula for accuracy calculations based on the 2 given accuracies and base weapon accuracy is correct, however, accuracy bonuses were changed to be additive to base accuracy and not multiplicative, so 50% + 10% more accuracy = literally 60% total, not 50 * 1.10 = 55%, will adjust table accordingly. Should be correct now]

    Forgive me for being dense or if this is posted elsewhere (I think it is), but I finally plucked away at the accuracy formula enough to determine what it is and calculate all accuracies with a given base range and accuracy + any modifiers with a few exceptions (one of which, I'm still working to determine).

    Minimum range is hard-coded to be 95% chance to hit, always, even though this can be counterproductive under certain conditions such as high accuracy weapons + passive accuracy bonus OR any weapon + Lucky Shot

    Median weapon range will have the accuracy listed on the weapon (+modifiers)

    Maximum range is hard-coded to be 10% chance to hit, always.

    Base Weapon (+modifiers)
    Range 10 (+1 Range Boost) Accuracy 50 (+10% Accuracy Passive) = 11 Range and 60% median accuracy
    [Previously thought it was 50% * 110% = 55% median accuracy, it is additive]

    Range - Chance to Hit
    1 - 95
    2 - 88
    3 - 81
    4 - 74
    5 - 67
    6 - 60 (Note: 11-1 = 10, 10/2 = 5, 5+1 or 11-5 = 6, this is the median range)
    7 - 50
    8 - 40
    9 - 30
    10 - 20
    11 - 10

    To calculate any accuracy at a range in between median and max: (simplified version)
    Median Accuracy - Max Accuracy = 35
    Max Range - Median Range = 5
    Accuracy Difference/Range Difference = Chance to hit change per tile between median and max range = steps by 7

    To calculate any accuracy at a range in between median and min: (simplified version)
    Min Accuracy - Median Accuracy = 50
    Median Range - Min Range = 5
    Accuracy Difference/Range Difference = Chance to hit change per tile between median and min range = steps by 10

    At least this is how I think it works. As I said in the opening, there are a few oddities such as LOSING chance to hit when you get closer than a certain 'optimal' range under specific conditions.

    It gets a little trickier with something like 10+1 range and 50+5% accuracy because the median accuracy at 6 will be 52.5% chance to hit due to GUI setup/for simplicity, but the game will display a rounded 53% even though that is NOT the actual number used in the calculation.

    Under the above condition, accuracy would step by 8.5% either way per tile, up or down from median range. [Hypothetical]

    Now it's going to be very difficult for me to determine what is going on with the outlier cases and reducing accuracy for closing distance, especially since respeccing is now limited, costs credits, and officer upgrades are on long cooldowns + battle count requirements!
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  10. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Were accuracy calculations changed??

    Being able to add 30% accuracy to a base 70% weapon for 100% accuracy at median range is nuts!

    Before, I thought it was multiplicative and would come out to 91% at median, which is still really good.

    A 40 or 50% accuracy weapon ending up at 70 or 80% is really realllly strong and the skill really diminishes the benefit of a high base accuracy weapon with the additive mechanic. Granted, you won't be able to get damage boost and range boost, or you could get boosts and only 15% extra accuracy.

    No matter how you cut it, additive accuracy modifier is really strong. Too strong.

    I'll have to run some numbers, but range boost seems to be a poor choice vs added accuracy.

    Instead, a 50% accurate weapon with +20% accuracy should come out to be a 60% accuracy rating at the median range. This would restore the value of Range Boost and High Range/High Accuracy weapons.
  11. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    I think I understand what is going wrong with accuracy:

    The error has to do with the hard-coded chance to hit at minimum range, which should be at least 95% or up to 100% based on your ship's weapon(s) and officer abilities. In some cases, your median accuracy can exceed 95%, and then the formula is working against you!

    So if Median = 100% accurate (from a 70% or better weapon + passives or lucky shot or any combination that achieves 100% accuracy)

    Range 11 Accuracy 100%+ (caps at 100%)

    6-100 (will display 99%, 2 digit limitation? or maybe I had a median range ending in x.5)

    All the same rules apply, so...

    6-1 = 5 range and 100-95 = 5 accuracy, 1 accuracy per step!... but since what the formula is really doing is minimum-median (check above, I reversed the input parameters in this line, and signs matter), you get -5/5 or -1 accuracy per step closer towards the target from median!

    6-100 (will display 99%, 2 digit limitation?)

    11-6 = 5 range difference again, but the accuracy difference is 100-10 or 90, 90/5 = 18 per step!

    There are at least a couple solutions:
    1-The chance to hit at minimum range should be set to AT LEAST 95% or Median Accuracy, whichever is greater (there is no formula to handle the scenario where median accuracy is greater than 95%) and chance to hit for everything in between should be the same.

    2-If the chance to hit at median would exceed 95%, set all accuracies from median to minimum to 95% to maintain that 5% chance to fail no matter what.
    [Exception: Lucky Shot 1-off ability should be able to reach 100% chance to hit]

    The current chance to hit system has some pretty major flaws... It is passable, but highly flawed.

    A much better but more complex system:

    Ships should have an accuracy rating (some integer based on the selected weapon) and an evasion rating (again some other integer, but based on the hull, maneuverability, movement points, initiative, idk what all you would want to factor in).

    As is, the -30% chance to hit evasion skill is really powerful on the big ships that don't move much, and as such, do not benefit from the maneuver skill at all.

    Tiny ships that have huge MP pools would pick maneuvering over evasion and simply outfly their opponents, using cover and LOS, staying out of weapon range for protection instead of relying on a 30% reduced chance to be hit.

    If tiny ships had a large evasion rating, say 1000 and it was improved by 30% to 1300...

    And large ships had a pathetic evasion rating of 100 and it was improved to 130...

    You get the idea.

    Now pair that evasion mechanic vs the new accuracy system, really small weapons that are short ranged don't have all that great of an accuracy rating, but that can be compensated for by flying in very close with the nimble ships.

    The small ship weapons may have an accuracy of 100 (and thus able to hit a large ship just fine, especially close in with comparable accuracy vs evasion numbers). Improving the accuracy of a small ship weapon by 30% wouldn't do much relative to improving the accuracy of a large ship weapon that already has a high base value.

    So a small ship with a 100 accuracy vs a large ship with a 100 evasion would have a 50% chance to hit at median range (similar to the existing system) and up to a 95% chance to hit at minimum range, down to 10% at max range.

    This is a very brief description of how I think the system should work.

    I totally understand manpower is limited and you do want to keep as close to the board game rules as possible. Just some suggestions to make it better.

    There are problems with accuracy and evasion and the not-so-much of a choice to be made between officer skills.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  12. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Using what I learned about accuracy calculations, I can now determine the best set of upgrades when considering Range Boost vs Accuracy Passive

    Let's look at my favorite all-arounder ship, the Sol Montana III (M3)

    Plasma weapons that give +2 dmg at 1-2 hex and +1 at 3-4 hex, 13 base range, 80% base accuracy

    2-92.5 (93)
    4-87.5 (88)
    6-82.5 (83)
    7-80 [+2.5 going closer to target, -11 and 2/3 moving away from target]
    8-68 1/3 (68)
    9-56 2/3 (57)
    11-33 1/3 (33)
    12-21 2/3 (22)

    So the question becomes, which upgrades are the best?
    Let's assume Damage Boost is a given (IT IS A GIVEN, GET DAMAGE BOOST!) You now have 4 points to play with.
    Your options are:
    -Overload, but that's not going to happen and we are concerned with accuracy (it's a niche skill, I have a specific purpose for it, and specializing this way is not what an all-arounder ship would do)
    -Lucky Shot, same as above, it does have a niche purpose, but certainly not necessary on an already highly accurate ship such as the M3 ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE FLAWS IN THE ACCURACY MECHANICS OF THIS GAME !!! If you set your median accuracy to 100% (displayed 99), it drops off significantly should you go even 1 tile beyond median, and if you are at or closer than median, your accuracy is already phenomenal with these weapons. Lucky shit (yes I said that right) is pointless in this case.

    So our only real 2 options are:
    -Range Boost
    -Accuracy Passive

    The only possible combinations are:
    +1 Range Bost
    +3 Accuracy Passive (+15%)


    +4 Accuracy Passive (+20%)

    So that makes things simple, I only need to calculate 2 tables!

    13 Range, 80+20 Accuracy = 100 (I swore I used to get 96% accuracy because it was 80 *120% = 96, which held true for several tiles because of the rounding, 1-3 would be 95, 4-7 would be 96%)

    2-95 5/6 (96)
    3-96 4/6 (97)
    4-97 3/6 (98)
    5-98 2/6 (98)
    6-99 1/6 (99)
    7-100 (99) [Will say 99 because of display limit? -5/6 as you get closer to target from median, -15 as you get further from target from median, you lose both ways!]

    Well, applying some critical thinking, I can already tell you that range boost is pointless. Why? Because that would extend your median to 7.5 (14-1 = 13, 13/2 = 6.5, 6.5+1 or 14 - 6.5= 7.5)
    Being at 7 Range, you would only have 95% chance to hit, and EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE RANGE BOOST !!!!?! You would have reduced accuracy and a significant dropoff at 8 tiles away because 8 is greater than the median of 7.5 and you are approaching the 10% at max range very quickly with current mechanics.

    13+1 Range = 14, 80+15 accuracy = 95

    7.5- 95 Impossible to achieve, but theoretically, 95% accuracy here [+- 0 as you approach min range because 95% accurate at min range - 95% at median = 0/6.5 tiles = 0 change per tile, -85/6.5 or 13.0769231 per tile further out from median]
    8-88.46 (88) [remember, this is only half a tile out from median]
    9-75.36 (75) [this is 1.5 tiles out, and so on]
    10-62.29 (62)
    11-49.22 (49)
    12-36.14 (36)
    13-23.08 (23)

    Like I said before I even ran the numbers, Range Boost is absolutely pointless in this scenario, but that's because of flawed numbers, both how Accuracy Passive is added to base accuracy (no multiplied), the way accuracy is calculated based on the median and the hard-coded min/max accuracies, and the overall system that does not use an integer value of accuracy and evasion on a per ship basis (modified by other factors such as weapon, init, movement, size, mass, etc.).

    So here's me blowing up about a flawed accuracy system and how the Accuracy Passive officer skill/calculation was changed!

    I'd love it if I could test out my theory 2 maxed out M3's in the blink of an eye without burning credits :p

    Range boost is kinda shitty if you have an odd-based weapon range to begin with. Yes, it does help in some cases, but not at all if you are capping your accuracy (Again, under the current flawed mechanics)
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  13. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Here's one I've been getting at random after allocating power, changing allocation, changing ships, changing/adding officer upgrades? Not entirely sure what the link is.

    I've seen this negative or unusually high or in general, just unusual movement points displayed (And if it stays negative, you cannot move, it treats them as actual) Negative Movement Bug.jpg

    7 x 3 shield surfaces is 21 power

    Each of 5 weapons consumes 1+1+2+2 = 6 *5 = 30 power

    75-30-21 = 24 power remaining, 24/4 = 6 movement

    6 movement = 6 initiative + 2 from rank 1 captain skill = the displayed 8 initiative

    I just started my combat phase and I have -13 movement?!

    PS - I love how you can get 25 damage (2 charges + Officer + 2 from range bonus = 2 power per weapon x 5) for the first 10 power and then 10 more damage for the next 20 power! It pays to know the system while also having the option to turn up the juice just a tad bit more when it's needed :)

    Heck, 20 dmg for 5 power is nice too!
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  14. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Seems like Officer Battle requirements went from something like 1 3 7 13 21 (1 +2 +4 +6 +8) to 1 5 10 20 40. I saw your patch note about it, was trying to figure out details.

    Kinda funny cuz I have 3x upgrades on some officers from the previous system that no longer have the required battles to have 3 ups.
  15. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Running into stealth mines and ships because of scanner/radar errors is no fun! Or is it? lol
  16. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Something doesnt feel right with the new engine damage OR hull damage mechanic. Point for point, the damage is the same (X to hull OR X to engine) and repaired exactly the same. There is no bonus to scoring an engine hit unless you can greatly exceed the enemy ship's repair capacity.... but then you could have just destroyed them instead of hitting engines in the first place.

    IF hitting a ship system, engines, etc, caused that system to go offline or have immediate consequences during the combat round in which the blow was dealt.

    For example, one ship goes first, hits a second ship's engine and weapon, the second ship cannot fire that weapon in the round in which it was damaged or subsequent rounds until repaired, and a respective amount of free energy that would have gone to movement is immediately lost.

    Being able to continue using weapons or shields that are damaged (the only restriction is you cannot change their power allocation, they still work if previously powered) is too weak of a penalty for damaged systems. Same with having all engine power available when your engines were damaged on another ship's turn before you in the same combat phase.
  17. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    There's a desynch bug with trying to move into a cloud through a target or debris, also related is getting stopped for having scanned a target on the way into or through obstacles.
  18. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Positive note: Satisfied with the balance between XP cost, Battle Requirements, and Officer Upgrade timer (6 hour captain skill mandatory!)

    It gives a good weight to losing a ship.
  19. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    It is possible to be scanning an area on the border of the map outside of your 4-visible range and have an enemy spawn in on those tiles. They will be undetected until they move or you break LOS with the area and re-scan it.
  20. Xeen Dread

    Xeen Dread Active Member

    Need ping-location function for teammates and also map markers for self/party if and when.
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